Father Martin Defends Pope Francis’ LGBTQ+ Approach in Interview with Conservative Catholic Writer
Fr. James Martin, SJ
Father James Martin, SJ editor at America and an advocate for LGBTQ+ ministry was recently featured on “Interesting Times,” a podcast hosted by conservative New York Times opinion columnist Ross Douthat. The two Catholics, who have opposite opinions on Pope Francis, talked about the late pope’s legacy, Father Martin’s relationship with him, and the pontiff’s stance onLGBTQ+ equality.
In response to challenging questions by Douthat, Father Martin comfortably supported Pope Francis’ ideas. He recalled the time he met Pope Francis, and the Holy Father told him he supported his outreach efforts. Martin recounted:
“I said, “Holy Father, what can I do for you?” And he said, you can continue this L.G.B.T.Q. ministry in peace, which I found extremely encouraging and moving. He didn’t have to do that and he didn’t have to meet with me a couple of times.
Pope Francis saw support for the LGBTQ+ community as a way to create unity within the church, said Fr. Martin, though the pontiff’s detractors often said that doing so sowed discontent throughout different factions of the church. Douthat aasked the Jesuit priest:
You had controversies that conservative Catholics regarded as having been addressed and settled under prior popes, such as whether divorced and remarried Catholics should take communion without getting an annulment, the possibility of female deacons, if not female priests, the possibility of allowing blessings for same-sex couples. All of these were suddenly in the air. And that mattered a great deal to you because one of the forms of work that you took up under Francis was writing and arguing about gay Catholics and their place in the church.
So as a sympathizer with that push and opening of debate, how far do you think it went? How far did Francis go on those issues?
Ross Douthat
Martin explained:
“While those issues were in the forefront of a lot of our minds, I think the hot button issues were secondary for Francis. But I think he went as far as he could.
“When I was a delegate at the synod, which is the worldwide gathering of Catholics, one of the things I learned was how much he wanted church unity. You could see how much pushback there was from places like sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe and even in the United States to some of these issues, like women deacons, and L.G.B.T.Q. people. And he said a couple of times, unity is more important than these conflicts. So I think he tried to open the door to the discussion about some of these issues without breaking the church. So I think he tried to open the door to the discussion about some of these issues without breaking the church.
I think one of the fundamental differences between Pope Francis and a lot of his critics, particularly in the church and sometimes even in the hierarchy, was that he really spent time listening to people talk about their spiritual lives and had a real reverence for it — the activity of the Holy Spirit in the individual person’s conscience.
“So when he talked about discernment and listening to people, even in the synod on L.G.B.T.Q. issues, and in Amoris Laetitia,his apostolic exhortation on the family, a lot of his critics said: ‘Oh, well, anything goes, we’re going listen to people. It’s all about polls and opinions.’”
Douthat also questioned whether Pope Francis made any real, actual changes. Martin answered:
I think there’s been significant changes in church practice for L.G.B.T.Q. people, like the allowance of blessing of same-sex couples under certain circumstances. And then also something that I think is overlooked is his call for the decriminalization of homosexuality. That’s a big deal over in sub-Saharan Africa and Eastern Europe and Latin America.
So, I don’t think he set out to change the catechism. But I think he changed the conversation. And to change the conversation and to change the approach and the tone is a kind of change in teaching.
Martin also explained that he believed Pope Francis was constrained in making further changes because he valued church unity. He offered the following anecdote:
“I’ll tell you a story. I would write to him a couple times a year, and I suggested that he do something — I forget what it was — about L.G.B.T.Q. stuff. And he said: ‘Yeah, that’s a good idea. But if I do that, I will provoke a chain reaction.’ I thought that was an interesting choice of words. And he saw that as a negative thing.
“And I came around to agree with him that it’s not worth breaking the church over some of these things. So I think his approach was to open the discussion, which was a change.”
Douthat and Father Martin’s conversation also included discussions of the church’s positions on divorce, who the next pope may be, the overall impact of the church hierarchy, and the church’s approach to the modern world.
Father Martin’s conversation with Douthat is a thoughtful one, and summarizes (and in a way, eulogizes) Pope Francis’ approach as the leader of the Catholic church, and in particular his inclusion of LGBTQ+ Catholics.
—Elsie Carson-Holt, New Ways Ministry, May 6, 2025
It’s always interesting when conservative persons seem to complain when questions are asked about so-called “settled issues” in theology or other aspects of the Church’s mission. The fact that an individual (including a Pope) may have said that a particular issue is “settled” or “closed” doesn’t necessarily mean it is. If an issue keeps coming up again and again over the years, decades, and even centuries … then it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that it is “settled.” Yes, some things in Christian life are settled. Christians will never assert that, “Oh, actually there are 4 persons in the Godhead, not 3” or “Jesus was a really, really good human person, but he actually wasn’t divine.” These core aspects of faith are settled, and they are not open to debate. Other matters — especially those that relate to how the Christian life is lived or are informed by new information or the experience of God’s People in a different context — can and must be looked at with fresh eyes and an open heart.
Father Martin is a wise man in my opinion and I appreciate his work. I think the Catholic hierarchy in the United States needs a more open and “progressive” stance on some of the issues Douthat raises with Fr. Martin.
Years ago when I was in a parish I helped a number of Catholic couples through the annulment process. The diocesan court and the court of review were easy to work with. The couples I worked with were grateful. I think it is also important to recall the teachings of Vatican II on the primacy of conscience and that after carefully considering present church teaching on a particular matter like a marriage and/or a divorce that a person or persons are struggling with it is theirs to decide. I would add a this thought that the old Baltimore Catechism used to teach that the priest was only at a marriage as an official witness for the church, the two people getting married were the real ministers of the sacrament.
In the major question Douthat raised with Fr. Martin concerning same sex marriage, I have limited experience in witnessing same sex weddings. I have one where I was actually the official civil witness. I wore my roman collar but no stole and it was about ten years ago. The marriage took place in one of the men’s backyard garden after same sex marriage was approved in the United States. In the particular state where I lived ordained ministers like priests were permitted to witness marriages. I described the ceremony as a civil event with religious overtone. I gave the couple a blessing and signed the marriage license. There was another minister present from the Episcopal Church, and he did not want to sign the license because his bishop in diocese of the state where we were had not yet approved of same sex marriage e we were. Other Episcopal Church bishops in that state however did approve same sex marriage. There are a couple of other facts about this marriage. One of the men who got married had been a long time Catholic. He once told me his relationship with his partner of about twenty years was more stable than some of his heterosexual relatives. This man had for a long while attended and cared for the Catholic Church in the neighborhood where this wedding took place. He recently left that congregation when traditional Catholics began to move in. He then began attending the Episcopal Church where that other minister was from who was also at the wedding. It was an ecumenical event. Again this seems to me a case where the primacy of conscience has relevance.
Thank you Pope Francis for prying open that window of the church opened by St. John XXIII that has been closed pretty tight by some over the last fifty or sixty years.
Thank you, James Martin. Your openness about these matters is such a gift to the Church, especially LGBTQ people and others on the margins.